[FX.php List] [OT] (mostly) CTRL-N in browser

[Joel Shapiro]

Sounds great, Steve.

Does the school project you mention below need to do much/any  
printing?  That so far has been my biggest anchor to FMP  
functionality... especially batch printing.

I've been thinking a lot lately about when to use the web instead of  
FMP.  If I can step onto your soapbox for just a minute... One of my  
first thoughts after I first discovered the wonders of PHP was "why  
can't FMP layouts be dynamic?"  I don't know other DB apps or web  
backends to compare w/ FM, but I do agree that moving web-wards is  
the way things are going.  There was a big discussion going around  
recently on another list about the future of the FileMaker product  
line and how much will be Developer-focused vs End-User-focused.  It  
seems to me that a lot of the Developer-level tools that people are  
asking for are already available in PHP/JavaScript/CSS/AJAX, but so  
many developers seem reluctant to leave their comfortable FM-only  
world.  I know that others on this list have said they rarely develop  
FMP front-ends for their projects, but still stick with FM as their  
backend.  I think that's real interesting, and expect (hope?) that FM  
will become more of a web/desktop hybrid platform over time (and not  
just simulating web-like features in a desktop app).

Have a good holiday, and I'd love to see your 'proof-of-concept' if  
you get around to it.

Best,
-Joel

p.s. You're aware that starting with FM9, your schools will only need  
FMS not FMSA for XML web publishing, right?



On Sep 6, 2007, at 2:09 PM, Steve Winter wrote:

> Hi Joel,
>
> Yeah, I was pretty pleased with where I was heading until I ran  
> into the
> issue with the browser responding to the CTRL key combination.  
> Kevin F.
> confirmed what I had feared that there was no way round with without
> something hideous and proprietary like ActiveX, so I've put that  
> aspect of
> the idea on hold.
>
> As to why go down this route, the answer is simple, cost...! My  
> client has
> spent a number of years developing an excellent solution for behaviour
> management in schools, which they've been able to sell into a  
> number of
> schools who were already using FMP for other administrative tasks.  
> The next
> step was to try and sell it into non-FMP schools, at which point  
> they found
> that the cost of licensing FMP server, and enough clients became
> prohibitive, even at educational licensing prices, for many schools...
>
> Enter stage left, one copy of FMSA on their server, a db for each  
> school,
> and a replacement web front-end that I'm in the process of  
> developing... it
> enables them to continue selling their product, but now to any  
> school that
> is interested, since all the school needs is a web browser to  
> operate the
> solution, rather than either a copy of FMP for every member of  
> school staff,
> or the inconvenience for those staff of having to use specific  
> computers
> with FMP on them...
>
> I've been using FMP since v3, and find it still to be an amazingly  
> useful
> and flexible application, however these days I seldom use it as a  
> front end,
> for exactly the reasons you outline, the PHP/CSS/JavaScript  
> combination,
> especially now with Ajax reaching the levels that it has, to be a  
> vastly
> superior combination to the available front-end tools in FMP.
>
> This probably leads many people to wonder why I use FMP over one of  
> the more
> 'traditional' web backends like MySQL or the like. My answer is  
> because it's
> smart... it can think for itself and perform all manner of things  
> much more
> easily than other database solutions that I've worked with can,  
> especially
> when you add a couple of relatively inexpensive plugins to the  
> mix.. In one
> recent app I developed it sent faxes, emails, text messages, bar  
> codes to
> mobiles, printed swipe cards, received emails, ran real-time  
> auctions with
> auto-bid facilities, made coffee... well sadly it couldn't actually  
> make
> coffee, but it did do everything else... when you put that power  
> behind the
> flexibility of PHP/CSS/JavaScript you've got an awesome combination.
>
> Okay, I'll get off my soap box and return to the topic at  
> hand...because of
> the nature of the site and the development I'm afraid that it's not  
> publicly
> accessible, however I'm about to head away on holiday for a couple  
> of weeks,
> which will involve several hours on trains and planes so I'll  
> undertake to
> develop a 'proof-of-concept' from what I've done which I will make  
> available
> online, and the source of which I'll provide to members of the list  
> that are
> interested...
>
> Cheers
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fx.php_list-bounces at mail.iviking.org
> [mailto:fx.php_list-bounces at mail.iviking.org] On Behalf Of Joel  
> Shapiro
> Sent: Thursday, 6 September 2007 6:20 p.m.
> To: FX.php Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [FX.php List] [OT] (mostly) CTRL-N in browser
>
> Hi Steve
>
> I think this is interesting, and it sounds like what you've done so
> far is pretty cool.  Can you say a little about why you're re-
> creating the FMP interface on the web -- and why you're switching
> over in general from client to web-based?  I agree that more apps are
> heading to the web, but as Dale mentioned, FMP and the Web each have
> their own strengths.  Are you trying to mimic the FMP GUI as well?
> Because here at least it seems that a web interface can be so much
> more user-friendly, with CSS and JavaScript...  (Which I think makes
> FM9's brand new "Conditional Formatting" feature seem so limited and
> elementary. ;)
>
> Any chance this site is public, to see what you've done?
>
> Best,
> -Joel
>
>
> On Sep 5, 2007, at 7:54 AM, Steve Winter wrote:
>
>> Hi Dale,
>>
>> All good and interesting points, however with the increasing
>> convergence
>> between the web and the 'client-server' world that is occurring, I
>> guess I
>> was trying to push the boundaries a little here...
>>
>> With the exception of the new browser window opening I had in fact
>> been able
>> to code a solution which works as seamlessly on the web as it does
>> in FMP
>> client. When the user selected CTRL-N the webpage refreshed to a  
>> blank
>> record from the one that they were viewing, and they could begin
>> entering
>> data. As soon as they entered a field, entered some data, and then
>> left that
>> field Ajax created the record and wrote that data back into the db,
>> as well
>> as setting a php session flag with the recID of that record, as
>> they moved
>> from field to field this seamlessly happens in the background, just
>> like it
>> does in the FMP client... maybe a nice idea before its time...
>>
>> Cheers
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: fx.php_list-bounces at mail.iviking.org
>> [mailto:fx.php_list-bounces at mail.iviking.org] On Behalf Of Dale
>> Bengston
>> Sent: Wednesday, 5 September 2007 3:44 p.m.
>> To: FX.php Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [FX.php List] [OT] (mostly) CTRL-N in browser
>>
>> Hi Steve,
>>
>> I think it's important to let a browser window be a browser window
>> and a FileMaker window be a FileMaker window. There are certain
>> things that will just work differently from one to the other.
>>
>> While control-n can be used to create a new record directly in
>> FileMaker, no such mechanism exists in a web browser because the
>> browser window is not directly connected to the data; it is by nature
>> separated from the data. (I consider this one of the great advantages
>> to using the web as an interface - I don't have to create an
>> environment in FileMaker if I want to separated data from structure
>> from interface.) At best, you could hope to use control-n to fake out
>> a browser to load a web page that allows the user to enter data for a
>> new record and then submit it to FileMaker. This is already different
>> than creating a new record in FMP and filling it in.
>>
>> So, I guess my long-winded point is, play to the strengths of your
>> environment. The web may offer you some better ways to do certain
>> things than straight FMP client-server, and some workflows will
>> probably have to change because you can't replicate certain FMP
>> behaviors. Import and export come to mind. I also recall someone on
>> the FBA list once lamenting that FMI had not arranged it so they
>> could pop up custom dialog boxes via the web like they could in FMP.
>> (Huh?)
>>
>> My rule of thumb is, when developing FileMaker client-server, I think
>> like a FileMaker developer. When developing for the web, I think like
>> a web developer.
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> --
>> Dale Bengston, Partner
>> Streamline Studio, LLC
>> (a division of The Whole Brain Group)
>> Member, FileMaker Business Alliance
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 5, 2007, at 1:51 AM, Steve Winter wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Kevin,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your reply... that's much as I feared would be the case,
>>> i.e. bad
>>> luck, can't be done...
>>>
>>> And yes, Exchange web client is definitely using ActiveX, and
>>> you're quite
>>> right that I don't want to go anywhere near that...!!
>>>
>>> I guess my only option is to locate key combinations which no  
>>> browser
>>> currently recognises, but at that point there's no point, since I
>>> won't be
>>> able to use the regular FM ones like CTRL-N, CTRL-S etc so I should
>>> just
>>> save myself the grief... wasn't really critical, just a 'nice to
>>> have' cool
>>> feature...
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: fx.php_list-bounces at mail.iviking.org
>>> [mailto:fx.php_list-bounces at mail.iviking.org] On Behalf Of Kevin
>>> Futter
>>> Sent: Tuesday, 4 September 2007 11:23 p.m.
>>> To: FX.php Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [FX.php List] [OT] (mostly) CTRL-N in browser
>>>
>>> On 5/9/07 12:18 AM, "Steve Winter" <steve at bluecrocodile.co.nz>  
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nice thought, but no cigar... browser still does it¹s own thing,
>>>> as well
>>> as
>>>> loading my desired page L
>>>>
>>>
>>> There's no way around that Steve. The browser intercepts all calls
>>> first and
>>> then passes them to the JavaScript interpreter as appropriate. If
>>> your
>>> keystroke or combination already invokes an action in the browser,
>>> it's
>>> already happened before JavaScript gets to see it. The Outlook Web
>>> Client
>>> probably uses ActiveX in IE to manage it, and those features are
>>> probably
>>> not available to other browsers.
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Kevin Futter
>>> Webmaster, St. Bernard's College
>>> http://www.sbc.melb.catholic.edu.au/
>>>
>>>
>>>
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