[FX.php List] [OFF] Someting to show at DevCon CWP User Group? -> web frameworks

Thu Jun 20 14:47:13 MDT 2013

I am quite interested in this discussion and would love to hear more about it at the Devcon php meeting. 

I have seen mentioned that the frameworks work with FX but do they also work with FIleMaker's php api ?

Michael Sloper

On Jun 20, 2013, at 12:10 PM, Leo R. Lundgren <leo at finalresort.org> wrote:

> I think Dale explained a lot of things very well. Kudos for taking the time and effort to write that answer.
> 
> Especially the form example speaks for itself. Sure, it's quicker to just hard code the HTML, and there's your form. But what about all the rest of the work and processing, which is by far the majority of the things involved? That's where the big part of the work is, and the creation of the form fields is a drop in the ocean. Again, I think Dale covered most of it in what he said.
> 
> I don't know why there's even a discussion about this. Just use a good framework, period (expect of course for the rare cases where you need a simple one-page PHP script, which presumably isn't very often). I'd even go as far as putting it this way; If you are unsure about whether you should use a framework or not (for the things we're discussing here), you should use one. When you come to the point that you know whether or not you should, that's when you can choose to not use one ;)
> 
> Regards, Leo
> 
> 
> 20 jun 2013 kl. 21.04 skrev Dale Bengston:
> 
>> Okay, Tony. I'll bite on frameworks. 
>> 
>> Yes, frameworks often take more steps to do something like create a simple form. Sometimes. But there are payoffs that make it well worth the effort of learning that new way of doing it. I use the Cake framework, and the first time I coded a form it was utterly alien and incredibly frustrating to get it working. But the upside is Cake builds in all sorts of security features to protect against SQL injection and cross-site submits. (I won't try to explain how they do it; Cake's documentation can do a far better job.)
>> 
>> I'll freely admit that this was really difficult for me, after writing my own PHP code for ten years. But once I got past the frustration and learned enough to be a functional coder again, I will never look back. I am completely freed up from the menial work of hard-coding paginated search results, sortable tables, form validation, AJAX calls, jQuery functions to bind clicks, on and on. I can focus on the things that my clients are really looking to me for, like overall usability.
>> 
>> An added benefit of learning a framework like Cake is it's forced me to completely understand and embrace MVC. An ancillary benefit is that every action on a site is contained, and there is very little risk of something breaking somewhere else when I do code modifications.
>> 
>> But the big issue for me, and the reason I will never go back to my own self-written framework, is security. There is just no way a solo coder like me can even stay on top of security threats, let alone address them all. But a group of highly-motivated experts contributing to an open-source project like Cake can do it. I choose to stand on the shoulders of these giants.
>> 
>> Yes, it's a struggle as an experienced coder to learn someone else's methods and conventions. But in the long run, it's worth the struggle to reap the benefits of a well-written, well-maintained framework.
>> 
>> I hope that helped,
>> Dale
>> 
>> PS I am not a Cake zealot; it is what I use but there may be other frameworks that are more suited to your projects.
>> 
>> 
>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 11:02 AM, Tony White <tony_white at twdesigns.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi All,
>>> 
>>> First off, I should say that on the topic of web frameworks, I have more questions than answers.
>>> 
>>> That said, I have been researching web frameworks both in the PHP world and in the Ruby world and have some thoughts on the matter.
>>> 
>>> I have to confess a bias...I prefer to code as “close to the metal” as I can for any given environment. I want the shortest path from point A to point B, unless there is an advantage to inserting more hops along the way.
>>> 
>>> There are lots of blog posts (many of which I’ve read) that talk about the advantages of using a framework versus not using a framework.
>>> 
>>> There are also many blog posts on the web comparing procedural PHP to object-oriented PHP.
>>> 
>>> There is also a lot of documentation about how different frameworks work. I have read through much of the documentation for CodeIgniter and ZEND.
>>> 
>>> >From Joel Shapiro a while ago:
>>> http://www.phpframeworks.com/ 
>>> 
>>> Having said all that...I’m currently of the opinion that it is sometimes correct to use a web framework and sometime correct to avoid using a web framework. 
>>> 
>>> Likewise it is sometimes correct to use object-oriented PHP and sometimes best to use procedural PHP. 
>>> 
>>> Any given choice should be guided by pros and cons and how they affect a particular situation.
>>> 
>>> I’ll start off by making the assertion that the web frameworks have greater complexity. This complexity must be balanced by benefits in order to justify the cost.
>>> 
>>> For an example of complexity, have a look at what’s involved using the ZEND framework to add form elements to a web form...
>>> 
>>> http://framework.zend.com/manual/1.12/en/zend.form.standardDecorators.html 
>>> 
>>>  … and compare this to building a form manually:
>>> 
>>> http://webcheatsheet.com/PHP/form_processing.php
>>> 
>>> Most people would agree that it is more complicated to use a web framework for this task.
>>> 
>>> This gets us to the question, “what are the advantages to balance out this type of complexity?”
>>> 
>>> The idea behind a web framework is that it solves a number of recurring problems that will (or might) come up in any given web project. Examples include:
>>> 
>>> * Protection against cross site scripting attacks
>>> 
>>> * The ability to implement unit testing (PHPUnit, RSpec, etc.) to protect against changes breaking code, for example on large projects with multiple team members.
>>> 
>>> * Protection against web form spoofing.
>>> 
>>> * Dynamic database query generation within an Object-relational mapping pattern 
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-relational_mapping
>>> 
>>> *** I wish I had a comprehensive list of all the things that a web framework gives you. Please feel free to add to this list. Additions appreciated.
>>> 
>>> A web framework is a collection of code, some of which which will be useful for a given project and some of which will not. There might be advantages in deploying only the pieces of code that are needed for a given project and in the simplest possible way.
>>> 
>>> For example, in the Ruby world, the 2 popular frameworks seem to be Ruby on Rails (RoR) and Sinatra. Ruby developers talk about using RoR in some cases and Sinatra in other cases where they don’t need the overhead of RoR. This method of starting with the amount of code that’s appropriate for a project seems like a good idea. There is also the question of how easy is it to  modify a framework for those cases where you need to color outside the lines.
>>> 
>>> The most important question seems to be what problems does a framework solve? If we can answer that question, it will help us make the best decision of when to use a framework and when to keep it simple.
>>> 
>>> What do you all think?
>>> 
>>> Thanks.
>>> 
>>> All the best,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Tony White
>>> Tony White Designs, Inc.
>>> Tel: 646-714-2797 (Google Voice)
>>> Tel: 718-797-4175
>>> tony_white at twdesigns.com
>>> http://www.twdesigns.com
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